MAY 30, 2007
VOLUME 4 NO. 10

PATIENTS & PRACTICE

The Interview

Invasion of the body snatcher

Dr Gunther von Hagens' Body Worlds exhibitions of plastinated human bodies have wowed — and revolted — people the world over. The unconventional German anatomist and physician was on hand when his new show Body Worlds 2 opened in Montreal on May 10. Before leaving for Germany, he sat down with NRM to chat about black hats, James Bond and how many pieces he'll be cut into when he dies.


How does a guy end up spending his life shooting dead bodies full of plastic? It was more or less by accident. I came into anatomy in the 80s and I saw the latest developments, specimens encased in blocks of plastic. I asked the curator, "Why don't you push the plastic inside?" He said "I can't." I wasn't satisfied with that. We can go to the moon, but we're not able even to preserve ourselves!

What's the first thing you ever plastinated? A human tongue.

Which piece has got the most reaction from people? The pregnant woman with the fetus. Because it's a double tragedy, you know.

Why's it so important to you to use real human bodies instead of sculptures? We are done this way by our nature. We must go out and look for ourselves, see the real. The real bodies have mistakes. I have never seen two hearts that look alike, like no two fingerprints look alike. Therefore all the educational power depends a lot on the reality of the specimens. I call it the fascination of the real.

Doesn't putting the bodies in wacky poses — like a skateboarder or The Thinker — undermine this lofty purpose? At the first exhibition, in Japan, I put them into anatomically-placed positions and the only complaint we got from that exhibition was that it was too frightening, they looked like ghosts. I reminded myself that during the Renaissance posing was established as a means for the dead to help the living. So we changed that and ever since we've never had complaints that they look ghoulish.

What do you say to people who say this is art not science? I'm a scientist who praises art, and an artist who praises science. But I must decide where is my ethical boundary. I wouldn't use human tissue for sculpture. I'd never turn a dissected leg into a golf club. In modern art there have been some experiments where they put a brain in a tube and it moves up and down and they call it 'Brain Pump.' This is not anatomy. I will always show a heart as a heart, with an educational health message.

What's been the reaction of Canadian doctors to Body Worlds? They tell me, "Oh, I wish those specimens had been available when I started medical school." They especially like the transparent slices, because you can follow the growth of a tumour in 3D.

You've said you always wear that hat in homage to early anatomists whose black hats were an emblem of their profession. Do you identify with them? Yes — they were visionaries. They detected the beauty beneath the skin and believed that the human body belongs to everybody.

What about their propensity for grave-digging and body- snatching? That was another time, the ethics were different. At that time, you really believed that it was your right to take bodies from the gallows for teaching, and actually it was supported by religion, by the Pope. I think Christianity is the most anatomy-friendly religion on earth. Only Christianity has this philosophical basis that comes from Aristotle, the duality of soul and body.

5 things you didn't know about... Dr Gunther von Hagens

How he likes his bratwurst I don't eat that. I like flesh but I don't eat flesh.

The wildest, craziest, most rebellious thing he did as a teenager I learned touch-typing and stenography.

The first whole person he plastinated A friend of the family. He was old and he had a weak heart. He was so enthused to become the first whole body, he even picked how he wanted to be posed.

His real-life Weekend at Bernie's moment When I first developed plastination, there was an anatomy conference in Mexico City. So to save money, I took a Greyhound bus from New York for three days and nights with my plastinates. At the border the Mexican customs officer said, 'What is this?' I said, 'A human head, do you want to see it?' He went to the window and turned around and said, 'Take it out, okay, put it back in again.' Then he turned back around and let me go.

What he was doing when the Berlin Wall came down I was in Russia sitting breathless in front of the TV.

Speaking of bodysnatching, it's been tough for you to shake rumours you've bought Chinese political prisoner cadavers for Body Worlds. Why don't you create a death certificate tracking system to prove where you get your corpses? It's not worth it. It creates a lot of legal problems. Even decades later, some offspring could say, well I want to have the money for that, or take the body back. Also, it's not good for those who view it. I like that people recognize themselves, that the specimens talk to them: "I was what you are. You can become what I am." Where there's a name, they identify less and the educational power is less.

Are you a modern day Dr Frankenstein? He created a new man by a blunder. I do it better.

Have you ever been tempted to create new life from dead bodies like he did? I've thought about it. But what I do has to be supported by the majority. This is anatomy for the masses.

BodyWorlds had a bit part in the latest James Bond movie. Do you have a favourite James Bond actor? I wouldn't say, no. I look more for the women. [laughs]

Would you call yourself a Bond fan? Yes, in my upbringing he stood for freedom — power without boundaries. Especially as an East German. All the technology that we were promised in communism, he had it. He could go anywhere. Bahamas, wherever. And we in East Germany, we were closed behind bars. I had no freedom, no freedom to travel or go abroad. In this way, James Bond helped shape my mind to try to escape East Germany, to run away.

Why did you want to escape? After the Soviet invasion of Czechoslovakia in 1968, I printed and distributed some leaflets against it. The next day, state security was everywhere. They never found out it was me, but I saw it was really a dictatorial regime and it became very obvious to me.

How'd you get caught? I had a counterfeit passport on the train. I was in jail for two years and I learned a lot.

Did they torture you? Well, of course. I was diplomatic, though. When they told me to do something, I did it. I lost some teeth there, and the medical care was not so good. I ate raw potatoes to get some vitamin C. And then the communists needed money so I was sold as a political prisoner to the West German government. I think it was a good buy. [laughs] They paid about $20,000 for me.

Your wife, who's a doctor too, works with you on Body Worlds. Does hanging out with a load of corpses ever put a damper on the romance? For me, it's the only way to be together with a woman. Otherwise I wouldn't have time for her, you know? It is the only way we communicate.

What does the future hold for Gunther von Hagens? I will plastinate the rest of my life.

Will you be plastinated when you die? Certainly! Of course.

How would you like to be posed? It's up to my loved ones. We discuss it sometimes. My wife would like to put me in total in the exhibition entrance to welcome visitors. My son and I think it might be more useful to cut me in slices and distribute me to many universities, as a kind of advertisement, so I can even teach in several universities at the same time. That would be funny.

Interview conducted by Sam Solomon

 

 

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