How does a guy end up spending
his life shooting dead bodies full of plastic? It
was more or less by accident. I came into anatomy in
the 80s and I saw the latest developments, specimens
encased in blocks of plastic. I asked the curator, "Why
don't you push the plastic inside?" He said "I can't."
I wasn't satisfied with that. We can go to the moon,
but we're not able even to preserve ourselves!
What's
the first thing you ever plastinated? A human tongue.
Which piece has got the most
reaction from people? The pregnant woman with the
fetus. Because it's a double tragedy, you know.
Why's it so important to you
to use real human bodies instead of sculptures?
We are done this way by our nature. We must go out and
look for ourselves, see the real. The real bodies have
mistakes. I have never seen two hearts that look alike,
like no two fingerprints look alike. Therefore all the
educational power depends a lot on the reality of the
specimens. I call it the fascination of the real.
Doesn't putting the bodies in
wacky poses like a skateboarder or The Thinker
undermine this lofty purpose? At the first
exhibition, in Japan, I put them into anatomically-placed
positions and the only complaint we got from that exhibition
was that it was too frightening, they looked like ghosts.
I reminded myself that during the Renaissance posing
was established as a means for the dead to help the
living. So we changed that and ever since we've never
had complaints that they look ghoulish.
What
do you say to people who say this is art not science?
I'm a scientist who praises art, and an artist who praises
science. But I must decide where is my ethical boundary.
I wouldn't use human tissue for sculpture. I'd never
turn a dissected leg into a golf club. In modern art
there have been some experiments where they put a brain
in a tube and it moves up and down and they call it
'Brain Pump.' This is not anatomy. I will always show
a heart as a heart, with an educational health message.
What's been the reaction of
Canadian doctors to Body Worlds? They tell me, "Oh,
I wish those specimens had been available when I started
medical school." They especially like the transparent
slices, because you can follow the growth of a tumour
in 3D.
You've said you always wear
that hat in homage to early anatomists whose black hats
were an emblem of their profession. Do you identify
with them? Yes they were visionaries. They
detected the beauty beneath the skin and believed that
the human body belongs to everybody.
What about their propensity
for grave-digging and body- snatching? That was
another time, the ethics were different. At that time,
you really believed that it was your right to take bodies
from the gallows for teaching, and actually it was supported
by religion, by the Pope. I think Christianity is the
most anatomy-friendly religion on earth. Only Christianity
has this philosophical basis that comes from Aristotle,
the duality of soul and body.
5 things you didn't know about...
Dr Gunther von Hagens
How he likes his bratwurst
I don't eat that. I like flesh but I don't eat
flesh.
The wildest, craziest, most
rebellious thing he did as a teenager I learned
touch-typing and stenography.
The first whole person he
plastinated A friend of the family. He was
old and he had a weak heart. He was so enthused
to become the first whole body, he even picked
how he wanted to be posed.
His real-life Weekend
at Bernie's moment When I first developed
plastination, there was an anatomy conference
in Mexico City. So to save money, I took a Greyhound
bus from New York for three days and nights with
my plastinates. At the border the Mexican customs
officer said, 'What is this?' I said, 'A human
head, do you want to see it?' He went to the window
and turned around and said, 'Take it out, okay,
put it back in again.' Then he turned back around
and let me go.
What he was doing when the
Berlin Wall came down I was in Russia sitting
breathless in front of the TV.
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Speaking of bodysnatching, it's
been tough for you to shake rumours you've bought Chinese
political prisoner cadavers for Body Worlds. Why don't
you create a death certificate tracking system to prove
where you get your corpses? It's not worth it. It
creates a lot of legal problems. Even decades later,
some offspring could say, well I want to have the money
for that, or take the body back. Also, it's not good
for those who view it. I like that people recognize
themselves, that the specimens talk to them: "I was
what you are. You can become what I am." Where there's
a name, they identify less and the educational power
is less.
Are you a modern day Dr Frankenstein?
He created a new man by a blunder. I do it better.
Have you ever been tempted to
create new life from dead bodies like he did? I've
thought about it. But what I do has to be supported
by the majority. This is anatomy for the masses.
BodyWorlds had a bit part in
the latest James Bond movie. Do you have a favourite
James Bond actor? I wouldn't say, no. I look more
for the women. [laughs]
Would you call yourself a Bond
fan? Yes, in my upbringing he stood for freedom
power without boundaries. Especially as an East
German. All the technology that we were promised in
communism, he had it. He could go anywhere. Bahamas,
wherever. And we in East Germany, we were closed behind
bars. I had no freedom, no freedom to travel or go abroad.
In this way, James Bond helped shape my mind to try
to escape East Germany, to run away.
Why
did you want to escape? After the Soviet invasion
of Czechoslovakia in 1968, I printed and distributed
some leaflets against it. The next day, state security
was everywhere. They never found out it was me, but
I saw it was really a dictatorial regime and it became
very obvious to me.
How'd you get caught? I
had a counterfeit passport on the train. I was in jail
for two years and I learned a lot.
Did they torture you? Well,
of course. I was diplomatic, though. When they told
me to do something, I did it. I lost some teeth there,
and the medical care was not so good. I ate raw potatoes
to get some vitamin C. And then the communists needed
money so I was sold as a political prisoner to the West
German government. I think it was a good buy. [laughs]
They paid about $20,000 for me.
Your wife, who's a doctor too,
works with you on Body Worlds. Does hanging out with
a load of corpses ever put a damper on the romance?
For me, it's the only way to be together with a woman.
Otherwise I wouldn't have time for her, you know? It
is the only way we communicate.
What does the future hold for
Gunther von Hagens? I will plastinate the rest of
my life.
Will you be plastinated when
you die? Certainly! Of course.
How would you like to be posed?
It's up to my loved ones. We discuss it sometimes. My
wife would like to put me in total in the exhibition
entrance to welcome visitors. My son and I think it
might be more useful to cut me in slices and distribute
me to many universities, as a kind of advertisement,
so I can even teach in several universities at the same
time. That would be funny.
Interview conducted by Sam Solomon
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